“I’ve never talked with other men like this”: A generative interview with Maximilian Lehn

This generative interview is part of a series of conversations with participants of the Beyond Patriarchy Learning Journey, which explores how patriarchal systems shape our lives, relationships, and ways of organising — and what it takes to unlearn them in practice.

Maximilian Lehn has a background in sustainable development and is passionate about food system transformation, with a focus on regenerative agriculture, food sovereignty and different processes of co-creation. He now works to promote social engagement between nonprofits and companies.

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Max, let’s think back to the end of the learning journey, where you were invited to ‘plant a seed’ that you commit to nourishing moving forward – what seed did you plant?

When we were sat in that circle, I think the word integrity was very central. I wrote, ‘I want to live and show up with more integrity’.

I don’t feel like a person who has no integrity, but maybe different standards to which I hold myself accountable when I’m thinking of questions like: What kind of man am I? Or what is my role in perpetuating misogynistic, patriarchal structures?

I’m not always showing up with these values and with that same integrity that I think is so important in other people. Especially men – if someone is sexist or saying very misogynistic things, I’m saying something against it, but not to the extent that I feel like I need to.

Thanks, Max. Let’s hold onto that for now. How do you envisage this ‘seed’ growing at different scales, from the very personal out to the societal?

On a very personal level, I think this involves forcing myself to actively spend time with myself. For example, taking time to process my emotions or reflect on certain relationships – not trying to bury it somewhere. So really taking out time for myself to revisit that.

Something else I realized is that I can’t sit all day and read academic papers and think about myself and how I relate to patriarchy.

I realized that when being in the group, I experienced how it feels to actually share something and allow myself to feel overwhelmed, and then continue, even though I had some resistance.

Beyond Patriarchy is one way where you can do it on a community level. And it’s accessible, because it’s a small group and you’re able to feel comfortable quite quickly and share things.

Talking about these things with other men in my life is something else I value very much. I feel like I’m close to them, also emotionally, but some of them I never talked to about the journey. Maybe it’s about integrity again – just standing up for what I think is important, and actually engaging in talks with people that I already feel safe with.

And on a societal level, it would be amazing to have these journeys more accessible for other people to do it. Perhaps online, or facilitated by people from different backgrounds and in different settings. Making it more available and publicly known that things like this are out there, because I don’t think a lot of people know that journeys like this exist.

On this learning journey, what was an assumption or belief that you changed your mind about?

That there are other men who are interested in this. That there are other men who also don’t know everything about patriarchy or their role within patriarchy, but went on the journey, not really knowing what to expect, and were interested enough to stay with it.

It was a revelation to see other men doing this work. I’ve never talked with other men like this in my life.

That was very exciting! It also felt surprising – I didn’t expect the journey to be so personal and so challenging and, in a way, also rewarding.

It was uncomfortable. But it very quickly, even after the first session, felt comfortable to share things, because everyone was very kind and aware, but also showing signs of insecurity or being indecisive or struggling.

Being in a group of men and people socialized as men, and then listening to their experience and emotions, showing that you’re not alone – that was an ‘aha’ moment, a revelation for me. This journey has really shown me that I’m not the only one.

Yeah, for many people it’s their first time ever entering a space like that – it also was for me two years ago! Turning outwards now, what might your ‘asks’ of other people and groups be?

To be open when hearing about men coming together in groups and trying to discuss their role in patriarchy. Because it could be seen as exclusionary, but that’s not really what it’s about. It’s acknowledging that, in order for patriarchy to be dismantled and to create a post-patriarchal future, men also need to be involved. Not in every space, of course, but in some.

We talked a lot about ‘composting’ in the journey – things we might need to let go of – to turn inwards in order to turn outwards again. I want to ask you, Max, what might you still need to compost for this seed to flourish?

I need to compost this insecurity that what I say might be perceived negatively in any way by other people. I’m very much trying to please people and not be too confronting. But to actually change something and disrupt patriarchal structures you need to be confronting, and also allow yourself to feel uncomfortable when there’s friction with other people.

Composting doesn’t happen overnight, but it also doesn’t happen if I don’t do something about it – I need to actively do it, to get out and confront people and stand up for things.

And, of course, composting decades of being socialized as a man, especially in groups of boys or men in school. I need to compost the misogynistic things and sexist thoughts I still have in me. I don’t think of myself as sexist, but it’s very unlikely that I don’t have some of these thoughts still in me. There’s probably no man – or no person – who doesn’t have any of this within them.

I learned in this journey – when we looked at privileges and harms in the second session – how many of these ‘things’ I carry. So it reminds me that this is a lifelong journey – that this is one journey among many. And that we all carry wounds and different forms of socialization that mean the world is not this blissful, pure safe space that we might dream of – and that’s perhaps not actually a reality that we can ever have – so accepting that and finding ways to navigate it. This is why the ‘brave space’ poem we read in the first session is so important.

Lovely. Max, is there anything else you would like to bring in before we close?

I don’t think I’m fully aware yet of the impact this journey has had on me. I’m very grateful that I took part in it, and of course I’m very grateful for you and others to create that space, and how important it is to actually do it. I’m trying to put myself more ‘out there’ in terms of engaging in conversations, because I’ve realized how important it is to actually have them and not just think about them and read about them.

Feeling it in my body was very powerful, which I didn’t expect or experience much before. I was happy to be here, but I was also sometimes quite nervous.

After each session I remember I was beaming and rushed with joy! Not because it was over, but maybe because my body was telling me that it was proud of itself for going through certain emotions and thoughts.

So just a huge thank you again for doing this. It’s incredible what has already been created, but also what kind of potential it holds.

That’s a beautiful note to end on. Thank you, Max.

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This interview was hosted by Jack Becher with post-production support from the Generative Journalism Alliance. Stories from other participants can be found over on the blog. More info + pre-registration for upcoming learning journeys here.